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Post by Admin on Oct 15, 2014 15:14:13 GMT
This is the thread to discuss general invasion strategy and planning, etc.
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Post by Admin on Oct 15, 2014 19:00:05 GMT
demonnick and sebastiangrey This is the place for figuring out our defense strategy. Specifically, we have to determine where Minerva will place their defense forces, the tactics they will use (slow retreat?), etc.
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Post by demonnick on Oct 15, 2014 19:46:36 GMT
Awesome... Did we ever get around to finishing up the map of outlying Minerva settlements etc? Also, I agreed with Sebastians' comment that he might be very useful as a resource in your "figuring out how all the turns would mesh together" concept. Did you decide on your "ready go start" prompt? "you get a messenger that Minervan forces just got the s*** beat out of them etc... what do you do?"
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Post by Admin on Oct 15, 2014 20:09:52 GMT
Nope. I was hoping you guys could help plan out the Minervan settlements and defenses and etc. And I'm going to take Sebastian up on his offer.
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Post by demonnick on Oct 16, 2014 17:02:06 GMT
I was thinking that each village of more than 250 people would have a "pentad" serving as sheriff and deputies basically. Not the full combat units that are active duty Aegis, but more like either raw greenies mixed with old veterans. Kinda a low risk type thing. Their main job is to keep the peace.
Minerva has both Satellites and HAWKS, so they are going to have plenty of advanced notice that people are coming... most of our tactics are going to have to be delayed retreats, maybe a few poorly thought out last stands to buy time for civilians... A lot of poisoning water sources and food and hoping that the invaders mistakenly eat it and drink it... etc... There will be a few mission critical resources that they will try and hold, like the power generation fields and maybe some confluence of multiple refuge streams/camps... But Minerva has long range artillery, air cover and support and will be doing ridiculous damage for each lucky RPG hit that they have.
We can take Afghanistan or Iraq metrics for the average casualties per downed bird etc... and apply the same concepts. We do need to decide on amounts etc
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Post by Admin on Oct 16, 2014 17:44:36 GMT
Yeah small village would probably just have that. Plus at least 1 cannon battery on the village wall/tower. Larger towns would have larger defense force. And yeah, I'm thinking that team Minerva will basically know everything the other factions do, but not more than that (like their plans) unless you plan an action of sending a spy in sort of thing. But yeah, based on this map, we need to plan where all the villages and stuff are.  Basically, the inner black circle is more population dense than the outer black circle. Fewer outposts and security out in the outer circle. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 16, 2014 20:50:57 GMT
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Post by Admin on Oct 16, 2014 22:14:35 GMT
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Post by Admin on Oct 16, 2014 22:20:45 GMT
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Post by sebastiangrey on Oct 24, 2014 1:10:08 GMT
Hmmm... from the looks of the WIP map, our biggest issue would be defending the ginormous friggin desert to our northwest. To this end, and understanding that our enemies will probably outnumber us, I propose a defense in depth strategy using the "hedgehog tactic". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_defenceen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_in_depthTerritories in our area of influence should be approached by the Minervan equivalent of special forces. Instead of deploying to directly engage the enemy, they should train the locals in partisan and insurgent tactics, and purchase loyalty through the equivalent of immigration and future Minervan support for their family/clan/town. Their job would be to 1) harass invaders attempting to cross the desert, and 2) strike at the all-important supply convos for said invading forces. In addition to raising local auxiliaries, large forts should be constructed around areas we believe the enemy will attempt to capture. These forts would ideally be staffed with the bare minimum of soldiers, with a disproportionate amount of artillery, anti-air, and preferably usable airfields on each. Against a blitzkrieging force, each fort would be supplied from the air and provide intelligence and artillery fire on hostile forces. With any luck, subduing these forts will quickly become the enemy goals instead of pushing deeper into Minerva proper. Initial defense against the enemy should be light. Lure them into a false sense of security, convince them to strike far deeper than they should, and deploy airborne/air assault assets against areas we believe to be weak. In addition, air support will be a crucial force multiplier in this war. Hit and run tactics should be employed frequently, and the enemy should only be engaged when we have superiority, unless some major advantage can be gained from risky strikes. With any luck, these tactics will tie up an invading army and remove from them the momentum crucial to an invasion. Furthermore, we should hit the Turkmen hard in the beginning stages of the invasion, then offer them medicines and technology in perpetua if they join us. With any luck, this will sway them to our sides and mean one less thorn in our sides. Captured soldiers should be executed, publicly, but surrendered enemy soldiers should be taken care of and publicized in propaganda distributed to the enemy. The message should be clear: fight and die, or join and live the good life. This should sway some of the enemy foot-slogers over to our side. If at all possible, the special forces should be deployed inside enemy territory, with one mission: find the local ethnicity/religion/social group that's being downtrodden, and convince them to either feed us info or actively fight the enemy. It'll be a hard slog, but we may be able to pull outta this without using any of our plot armor at all. We're gonna take casualties, stupid numbers of them. We're going to lose battles. We have exactly three advantages; better tech, air support, and the ball is in our court. The enemy outnumbers us, probably outguns us, and are desperate to get what we got. The center of gravity is in our court. We should change that ASAP. Nobody wins wars on the defensive. |
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Post by sebastiangrey on Oct 24, 2014 1:19:19 GMT
We can take Afghanistan or Iraq metrics for the average casualties per downed bird etc... and apply the same concepts. We do need to decide on amounts etc Speaking as a paratrooper; if there is a downed bird, it's going down over enemy terrain. Even if anyone survives, they'll be out of contact and generally useless to us. In addition, it depends on the type of bird. A C130 can glide into a (somewhat) survivable landing if the terrain allows and a little luck. A downed helo from way up in the sky? Yeah, you're done. A downed helo from about a hunnerd feet up? Maybe. If the gods really, really like you that day. I'd vote any downed bird in anything other than a air assault mission is gonna be all hands lost, or at least crippled beyond repair. Cripples remind me of something I learned in Iraq: against an invading army, you don't necessarily want to kill the enemy. It's better to have them crippled: you can leave a corpse. It's harder to leave behind a dude who's sobbing for his mother as he slowly bleeds out. The insurgencies in Iraq used this is great effect against US soldiers. A crippled soldier requires the government's resources to maintain and is a walking, talking... or at least breathing representation of just why it's a bad idea to f*** with the opposing forces. I can imagine our slow retreat intentionally using weapons that cause lots of cripples, things like IEDs, exploding darts aimed into the legs, punji stakes, etc. etc... it's a devious, underhanded, cruel way of waging war, and it's wonderfully effective. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 24, 2014 14:03:59 GMT
Couple of notes: I love these defense ideas. We'd probably go with a modified hedgehog defense with more of an emphasis on defense in depth. Reason being, we don't have much in the way of special forces anymore. Groups like the Keleres were the special forces, but most of them got owned by the deathbots (produced by an as yet unknown enemy faction), so most of what we have left are the standard army troops. I should probably decide on exactly what forces Minerva has, but would love your input, sebastiangrey on what are believable numbers. Here are some ballpark first ideas for numbers. Overall Population: 500000 (100000 in HQ city, 200000 in the immediate surrounding area 150000 in the smaller black circle and 50000 in the larger black circle). Military Forces: I'm estimating that there is probably only 1% of the population is active Aegis military (due to Minerva's emphasis on tech, not numbers). So 5000 soldiers + all the necessary non-soldier personnel? These are all heavily armed and armored infantry, tanks, aircraft, etc. Probably a good 20 tanks, 10 heavily armored APCs, 20+ lightly armored APCs. 10 gunship helicopters, ~10 troop carrying/medivac helicopters. Definitely a fair amount of unmanned drone aircraft that can be used (like the HAWKS in chapter 1, up to bigger things with missiles and stuff). What else? Oculus also has their own forces. They have spies and agents that can infiltrate and do damage, as well as some security defense forces that can help in a pinch. Probably a good 5000 total as well. These would all be more lightly armored, better suited for manning defensive towers and stuff. So that's numbers. We can probably say we have the engineering productivity to have made or make all the fortifications and etc we want. We can even wire them to explode and stuff so the invaders can't take them. I was figuring we'd be trying to evacuate outlying villages, and rig them with traps for when the invaders move in to search for resources and stuff. Aircraft, trained teams attacking supply lines and etc. |
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Post by sebastiangrey on Oct 24, 2014 17:07:02 GMT
Yeesh,5000? 10000 with our Oculus paramilitaries?
Nice. I like it; the one percent fits in well with the obvious parallel between Minerva and the armed forces of the USG. That being said, we should obviously try to conscript/encourage/enlist auxiliaries to help defend our little empire. That being said, it would help if we had some sort of idea how badly we were outnumbered.
I notice a fairly low amount of vehicles, but that also fits. It's the apocalypse, after all, and it doesn't seem like Minerva's done much fighting against similarly capable enemies in the past.
I have some questions as to our capabilities:
What is the point-target range of the primary Minervan battle rifle? Can we engage the enemy before they can accurately engage us?
How many rounds can we produce consistently over an indefinite period of time? Will we be in danger of running out of bullets?
What is the method of logistical distribution? When and where will we be able to effectively resupply our troops with beans, bullets, and toilet paper?
How quickly can we move soldiers from one engagement to the next? How many soldiers can we transport in this way?
What are our methods of refueling our vehicles? Do they need frequent upkeep?
Are the totally-not-from-a-rouge-Minervan-faction deathbots still a threat?
What are the chances we can get Oculus agents to raise local insurgent forces in enemy held areas? (By the way, Special Forces are considered a specific subset of Special Operations Forces in military lingo. SF are specifically a cross between a diplomat and a drill sergeant. Their job is not to fight, but to train locals to fight. SOF forces are everything from Delta Force to The Unit to Civil Affairs. The Keleres seemed more like SWAT/Force Protection kinda folks.)
How many new soldiers and vehicles can we produce without significantly imparing the civilian war effort?
How invested in the war are our guys? Will they break and run at the first sign of things gone bad? Will they hold the line until death? If they will break and run, when can we conceivably expect them to not run, because their family and homes are directly threatened?
How accurate are our ISR assets? (Intelligence, Surveillance, and Recon) Can we accurately identify weak points and proceed to exploit them? How can the enemy spoof our assets?
What's the range of our artillery assets? How accurate are they?
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Post by demonnick on Oct 24, 2014 17:27:41 GMT
I would say that the Oculus forces fit the bill of Sebastian's "game up the local support, go behind enemy lines to game up problems at home etc" whereas the Aegis forces would be the ones in the forts and towns. Also, these forts would already be constructed over the past 100 years, we'd just need to figure out their placement before the "games" start.
Another huge advantage that we have that none of these factions do: satellite coverage, and therefore satellite AI encrypted comms. So our overall battlefield awareness is going to own theirs.
I also love the idea of the Turkmen stick and carrot... that is very much something that Oculus would do, and in our Lore is kind of known for doing... If you ever watched Naruto... then I imagine Oculus as ANBU with the ROOT secret crazies as well.
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Post by sebastiangrey on Oct 24, 2014 18:36:30 GMT
The Turkmen idea was blatantly inspired from a quote from an old Sid Meiers game; roughly quoted, it goes something like "War is war, destruction is destruction. But war is not destruction, it is victory. Just appear to give the enemy what he wants, and he'll either stop or join you in a quest for additional power." My impression was the Turkmen wanted medicines and technology from Minerva. In that, it shouldn't be too hard to bribe them with stuff and have them leave us alone. Satellite coverage, satellite coverage, satellite coverage... my favorite kind of ISR. (Sarcasm. Lots and lots of sarcasm.) Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful tool that fills some notable gaps and is incredibly easy to use. Problem is, it puts out a LOT of information that needs to have human operators (I mean self-aware operators, which raises some questions about how many AI we have on hand) to be put to any use, and it's really easy to spoof. Take a tan blanket, go lay out under it in the desert, and *poof*, unless they know exactly where to look for you, you're practically invisible to visible light observation, IR, thermal... And it's really easy to play the cup game against any kind of overhead surveillance. Good tool, yes, but we can't be over reliant on it. I'd suggest checking out Wikipedia's article on Operation Anaconda, but it's such a piece of propaganda now there's hardly anything of any use on it. Basically, we need scouts to augment satellite coverage... and if it comes down to choosing the reports of one over the other, you always trust the guy on the ground. I'd suggest locals for scouting. They know the terrain, and can justify their presence if caught. Now, onto some visual aides. First, my attempt at drawing my rough opinions on how our battle lines should be constructed:  Green line (which matches the outmost borders) is harassing attacks. Nothing major, unless a significant target of opportunity arises. Civilian populations should either be turned into Minervan insurgents or evacuated inside the red line, at least. If villages are evacuated, remove as much food from the area as possible, and poison the water supplies. Dysentery has killed more soldiers than other soldiers have, so biological methods are enthusiastically encouraged. The point of the green line territories is literally to make that massive desert the biggest pain in the ass for invading armies possible, forcing them to either bring in supply trains or deal with insurgent-infested areas. IEDs/mines should be right at the border, if at all possible, before the attack, with random clusters of booby traps further in along with a large number of fake traps. Either they'll just run through and take casualties, or they'll squander momentum and proceed with caution for each and every potential trap they find. There shouldn't be any major battles, but we need to bleed them dry before they hit the yellow line, because... Yellow line is where major battles should be played out. Retreat is an option, but unlike the green zone, force-on-force battles can and should be enacted, especially as they progress further and further into the yellow zone. That being said, if success (notice I didn't say victory, last stands and causing Pyrrhic victories for the enemy are valid, if carefully weighed, options) is highly unlikely, units can and should retreat to the red zone. The red zone is where s*** gets real. Retreat is the last option taken, ever. At this point, everything we have needs to be mobilized, because if we get pushed back into the black zone, we won't have half the friggin populated area of Minerva's resources to call on any more. Effectively, the red zone is also the first and last line of defense against the Temples and the Turkmen. (Which is why both of those forces should be targeted hard, first. We have time to deal with the NeoRussians, Sons of Muhammed, and the Mongols. Not so much with the Temples and Turkmen. The Black zone is it. No retreat, no surrender. With the exception of the Minervan Garrison, the men either hold or die with their boots on. Use it or lose it time for literally everything we have. The black zone is almost all contiguous mountains, which should provide a hefty advantage to our troops. Assuming we lose the black zone, and Minerva herself looks about to be besieged, I would suggest the following defensive posture, with green dots as artillery laden, mountain top defensive positions, and red lines as what I currently deem the most likely avenue of approach for large amounts of enemy forces. In case one of the mountaintop bases fall, it should all be blown sky-high. If the enemy gets artillery that close to Minerva, we're deader than dogs***.  Speaking of an actual siege, that actually may be cool to see in the comics... since we know this is pretty close to the "current" Demon Archives timeline, thanks to references to the psychotic murdermechs. Or like a side comic. I'd volunteer help draw it, if I could figure out how to make a straight line.  |
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Feb 11, 2016 19:34:32 GMT
Feb 11, 2016 19:34:32 GMT
